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Old Yesterday, 05:34 PM   #2001
Terran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eats View Post
Yes, I definitely do. Don't try to make me a tribalist just because you are.
You're a tribalist because you didn't do a damned thing to complain when Obama ordered a 'stand down' rather than a strong response to Russian meddling in America's elections.

Obama didn't do SHIT. Now the Dems think it's suddenly important. lololol, losers.

Quote:
And seriously you guys stop it with the uranium. It is so stupid and makes no sense.
Blind tribalist ideologues defend the indefensible.

Quote:
Before the Obama administration approved a controversial deal in 2010 giving Moscow control of a large swath of American uranium, the FBI had gathered substantial evidence that Russian nuclear industry officials were engaged in bribery, kickbacks, extortion and money laundering designed to grow Vladimir Putin’s atomic energy business inside the United States, according to government documents and interviews.

Federal agents used a confidential U.S. witness working inside the Russian nuclear industry to gather extensive financial records, make secret recordings and intercept emails as early as 2009 that showed Moscow had compromised an American uranium trucking firm with bribes and kickbacks in violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, FBI and court documents show.

They also obtained an eyewitness account — backed by documents — indicating Russian nuclear officials had routed millions of dollars to the U.S. designed to benefit former President Bill Clinton’s charitable foundation during the time Secretary of State Hillary Clinton served on a government body that provided a favorable decision to Moscow, sources told The Hill.

The racketeering scheme was conducted “with the consent of higher level officials” in Russia who “shared the proceeds” from the kickbacks, one agent declared in an affidavit years later.

Rather than bring immediate charges in 2010, however, the Department of Justice (DOJ) continued investigating the matter for nearly four more years, essentially leaving the American public and Congress in the dark about Russian nuclear corruption on U.S. soil during a period when the Obama administration made two major decisions benefiting Putin’s commercial nuclear ambitions.
The first decision occurred in October 2010, when the State Department and government agencies on the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States unanimously approved the partial sale of Canadian mining company Uranium One to the Russian nuclear giant Rosatom, giving Moscow control of more than 20 percent of America’s uranium supply.
Dumbass.
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Why would Republicans pass such a terrible tax law? lol...

Giving people more of their own money...WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS? :D
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Old Yesterday, 05:35 PM   #2002
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Originally Posted by SacredWeasel View Post
If it doesn't matter, why did Russia pay for it? Shits and giggles?
To make money. This was not a purchase of uranium, it was a purchase of shares in a mining company.

Almost all of the uranium is still in the US. Buying uranium is not a license to export it to Russia.
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Old Yesterday, 05:40 PM   #2003
SpectralThundr
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Originally Posted by Eats View Post
Yes, I definitely do. Don't try to make me a tribalist just because you are.

The US is the one who should be fucking with other countries. Not the other way around. This isn't some hippy justice bullshit, like you seem to think it is...which is strange.....
It's a do as I say not as I do mentality. Can you even fathom how hypocritical you sound?
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Old Yesterday, 08:54 PM   #2004
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Originally Posted by SpectralThundr View Post
It's a do as I say not as I do mentality. Can you even fathom how hypocritical you sound?

In soccer you try to score and also stop the other team from scoring. Is that hypocritical?
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Old Yesterday, 08:59 PM   #2005
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Originally Posted by Eats View Post
In soccer you try to score and also stop the other team from scoring. Is that hypocritical?
you're comparing sports to national sovereignty. Your belief is no nation can be sovereign except the US... you eats are truly a dumb fuck.
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Old Yesterday, 10:42 PM   #2006
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Originally Posted by SpectralThundr View Post
you're comparing sports to national sovereignty. Your belief is no nation can be sovereign except the US... you eats are truly a dumb fuck.
You are acting like a child. This isn't a kids game where we make sure everyone gets a turn with the ball. There is no time period in the history of civilizations when empires were not battling each other for spheres of influence/control. The United States is an empire in a battle with primarily China, Iran and Russia for control.

The history of the United States since at least ww2 is really a history of colonialism. When Trump talks about making america great again he is talking about a time period where the CIA toppled governments we didn't like, and exploiting the resources and manpower of other countries while exporting their wealth.

That is what the US is, and that is what every empire in all of history is.
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Old Yesterday, 10:59 PM   #2007
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Originally Posted by Terran View Post
You're a tribalist because you didn't do a damned thing to complain when Obama ordered a 'stand down' rather than a strong response to Russian meddling in America's elections.

Obama didn't do SHIT. Now the Dems think it's suddenly important. lololol, losers.
This was a tactical mistake to try to keep our elections legitimate, not him basically publicly allying with Russia against US interests.

If he had come out hard this could've triggered a constitutional crisis, which at the time the polls suggested this didn't matter and wasn't worth the risk to our political system.

You have to remember that back then politics wasn't a continuous circus of insanity where the president talks shit on twitter and is wildly unpredictable. Our allies actually expected us to maintain stability. You know, the way it has been for the past 100+ years.

Also when this came out he had 2 months left in office. What was there to do? He did do this: https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/29/polit...use/index.html

Even in retrospect I'm not sure what he should've done. Delaying the election or making some kind of move to stop Trump from running would've been absolutely crazy and not worth it. Honestly both candidates should've been disqualified but there was no way to do that without destabilizing our democracy.

Last edited by Eats; Today at 12:10 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 11:08 PM   #2008
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I mean look at this crazy bullshit:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...financier.html

If you don't think the Magnitsky act is justified then we have nothing to discuss because you live in a echo chamber of propaganda.
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Old Today, 12:18 AM   #2009
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Originally Posted by vallor View Post
Because what we need is a cyber war with any big foreign power. Especially one that we've decided meddled this time only because the President we got wasn't the President a bunch of people wanted.
This isn't even as simple as shilling for Trump. It is sowing general discord in our country by creating flash points. Also hacking our political parties and dumping documents before an election. These propaganda operations are new. Russia backing brexit and other protectionist political groups to break up our alliances is new.


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Originally Posted by vallor View Post
Y'all act as if this is the first time a foreign power has interfered with an election. The only difference now is how far off the deep end the progressive lefties have gone because who won. And they'll do anything, say anything, to try and minimize their awful showing and try to conceal the awful mismanagement of the country that led to a Trump win despite all the terrible things he supposedly stands for and represents in their eyes.
Show me examples of previous illegal interference in our elections by our enemies. Show me where they were hacking political parties and releasing illegally obtained information.
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Old Today, 03:00 AM   #2010
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There are huge differences between empires. You make it sound as if it's arbitrary, and no matter which side would have gained control it would have looked the same. It would have looked much much much worse under anyone else but the US.

You underestimate how far the world has come since ww2. It doesn't actually look bad, considering what we had to work with. Whatever you think the USA exported from other countries, it created much more wealth in them than what you think it took.

Of course there are also large differences in how these other countries managed themselves, what they made of the trade relations and opportunities, how they invested themselves.

As far as messing with other governments goes, there often was little choice. They were not good guys anyway, so messing with them was justified.
By preventing communists from gaining power, the US probably saved the lives of many millions more than died in the conflicts.
Often there was little choice in alternatives, so you try pick the lesser of evils, which is still pretty bad, but what can you do.
These regions just don't have much experience with proper government setups and our concept of freedom. And there also was a lot of deception among groups.
It wasn't a period of "colonialism" but active crisis management, in a region that's severely conflicted regardless of Western involvement. And it's far from simply dethroning governments "we didn't like".

Watch at how the Emirates look. If the last decades really were "colonialism" and "exporting their wealth", we would have simply took the oil for nothing, they could have done nothing to prevent that. Abu Dhabi would still be nothing but sand dunes and camels. Oil by itself is no wealth. It's dirt. The skyscrapers we built for them in exchange is wealth.



If messing with governments were simply about getting free stuff, we could have done that to the Emirates too. But the West has paid for everything. The West wants nothing more than stable trade relationships.
The West would vastly prefer if these regions were stable free market democracies like us, with fair deals and fair trades. This would vastly increase everyone's wealth, because actual wealth is something very different than you think it is.
Notions of how we profit on mayhem or exploitation in these regions, is peanuts compared to how much more wealth we could generate together if the Middle East looked like Europe. That it doesn't really is not so simple as to be our fault, even if you seem to think so.

Your concept of wealth seems to be, "every wealth we have is wealth they don't have". But this is not how wealth works in this day and age. If the Middle East were at our stage of development, the wealth of everyone in the world would increase almost exponentially.
Because actual wealth has to do with generation of knowledge, much more than the resource itself. The wealth of a people depends most of all on their knowledge and skills. And the best of all: everyone's knowledge in the world amplifies each other. With every people closing up on us, everyone wins.

Which is also why it's such a pity China is controlled by a repressive regime, which tremendously slowed them down. And by slowing themselves down, they slowed everyone down.
The cheap production they offer by exploiting their own population in sweatshops is nothing compared to the advantages for everyone in the world if they were a properly developed society like ours.

We don't really need cheap labour or cheap resources anymore. Most of all we need great ideas. It's all about the ideas now. And a great idea from one side of the world spawns another couple great ideas around the rest of the world.

Last edited by RAV; Today at 05:07 AM..
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